Noted “Anti-Pretribulation Rapture” author Dave MacPherson has been battling the skewed logic of Premillennial Dispensationalists for over 35 years, since writing his first book way back in 1973, (The unbelievable pre-trib origin: The recent discovery of a well-known theory's beginning, and its incredible cover-up).
Not a day goes by where we don’t see MacPherson being quoted by both believers and non-believers of the Pre-Trib Rapture mythology. Many folks (both eschatology students and new babes in Christ) faithfully watch the debate (primarily on the Internet) to see what new evidence he supplies to the on-going embroglio, especially where Dr. Tommy Ice is concerned. Ice is the Executive Director of the Pre-Trib Research Center in Wash. D.C. The Research Center was founded a few years ago by Tim LaHaye and Mr. Ice to research, teach, proclaim, and defend pretribulationism.
We are excited to, once again, host and offer “guest writer” status to Mr. MacPherson on The End Times Passover blog by sharing his latest volley in this contorted conjectural conundrum.
Pre-Trib Expert John Walvoord Melts Ice!
By Dave MacPherson
Ice impudently states (in his widely noticed web article "The Rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3") that "I believe that there is a strong possibility that 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is speaking of the rapture," adding that "The fact that APOSTASIA [caps mine] most likely has the meaning of physical departure is a clear support for pretribulationism."
In his book "The Blessed Hope and the Tribulation" (p. 125) Walvoord writes:
"E. Schuyler English and others have suggested that the word [apostasia] means literally 'departure' and refers to the rapture itself. Gundry argues at length against this interpretation, which would explicitly place the rapture before the day of the Lord, and his evidence is quite convincing. English is joined by the Greek scholar Kenneth S. Wuest but their view has not met with general acceptance by either pretribulationists or posttribulationists. A number of pretribulationists have interpreted the apostasy in this way as the departure of the church, but the evidence against this translation is impressive. In that case Gundry, seconded by Ladd, is probably right: the word refers to doctrinal defection of the special character that will be revealed in the day of the Lord [which "day" Walvoord views as "the great tribulation"]."
Dr. Tommy Ice
So even though Dr. Robert Gundry's evidence "is quite convincing" and Ice's "has not met with general acceptance" and evidence against Ice's assertion "is impressive" and Gundry and Ladd are "probably right," Thomas Ice keeps beating his desperate dispensational drum in the ears of the Walvoord who was the No. 1 pretrib authority for many decades!
Gundry's uber-great book "The Church and the Tribulation" (pp. 114-118) dismantles, piece by piece, the doctrinal defectors of II Thess. 2:3. For example, Gundry says that "it is from this least important source [classical Greek - in which "simple departure by no means predominates"] that English draws his argument."
After English (followed by Ice) seeks support from Reformation-era Bible translations, Gundry points out that "the appeal to early English translations unwittingly reveals weakness, because in the era of those versions lexical studies in NT Greek were almost nonexistent and continued to be so for many years. The papyri had not yet been discovered, and the study of the LXX had hardly begun."
Gundry adds: "In 2:1 Paul mentions 'our gathering' second in order to the Parousia. In light of the immediately preceding description of the posttribulational advent [II Thess. 1:7-10], it seems natural to regard the Parousia as a reference to that event rather than a sudden switch to a pretribulational Parousia unmentioned in the first chapter and unsupported in I Thessalonians. Several verses later (2:8) the Parousia again refers to the posttribulational advent of Christ."
If the "falling away" (2:3) is the same (pretrib) rapture Ice sees in "gathering" (2:1), why did Paul use totally different Greek words ("episunagoges" and "apostasia") if he was discussing the very same event?
A Google article ("Pretrib Rapture - Hidden Facts") reveals that pretrib rapturism historically has had more than two stages. Stage 1: In 1830 the "rapture" aspect of the Second Advent was stretched forward and became a separate coming. Stage 2: In the early 1900s various teachers stretched forward the "day of the Lord" (what Darby and Scofield never dared to do!). Stage 3: In recent times the "fact" involving "apostasia" has created "the-rapture-must-happen-before-the-rapture" fantasy which Ice etc. can hang on to with at least their eyelids!
For more info about Ice, Google "Thomas Ice (Bloopers)," "America's Pretrib Rapture Traffickers," and "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty" - the latter seen in a colorful version on the "Powered by Christ Ministries" site. For 300 pages of recently uncovered and highly endorsed documentation on pretrib history, see my book "The Rapture Plot" which is available at Armageddon Books etc.
BTW, my recent article "Edward Irving is Unnerving" was posted initially on Nov. 12 on the "Our Daily Bread" blog hosted by Joe Ortiz, author of two books that outright refute the Left Behind notions being propagated by Premillenial Dispensationalist, The End Times Passover and Why Christians Will Suffer Great Tribulation, which I emphatically endorse for those who want to peruse (accurate and highly academic) Bible data that lay to rest the Pre-Tribulation Rapture and Left Behind notions that are seducing Christendom into believing and adopting false hopes in a secret escape to Heaven.
Remember: Ice-colored statements can be as dangerous as ice-covered pavements!
For more information concerning this blog, visit The End Times Passover web site by clicking on Joe Ortiz
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16 comments:
Joe: You have done it again! You are on the cutting edge of things, you really know what's going on, and you are the wave of the future. And what a sense of humor with pics that magnify and probably embarrass some who need to be embarrassed. But of course they should have done their homework when their mother said to do homework, but when she wasn't looking they snuck out their window and went off to play ball with the kids. But now they (the pretrib deceivers) are facing the inevitable scoreboard which says they are losing badly which is why they are trying all sorts of tricks to somehow win any way they can. They should have listened to their mothers, right? Anyway, keep plugging away with the facts of true Bible scholarship and church history - twins that will finally win out over the captivated inhabitants of that tiny "Principality of Pretribulatia" - lol lol ! Belle W.
2Tim 3:1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men 2. will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, BOASTERS, PROUD, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, UNHOLY,
3. UNLOVING, UNFORGIVING, SLANDERERS, WITHOUT SELF-CONTROL, BRUTAL, despisers of good,
4. TRAITORS, HEADSTRONG, HAUGHTY, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
5. having a form of godliness but denying its power. And FROM SUCH PEOPLE TURN AWAY!
Why does Postrib so publicly slander their Pretrib brethren who are saved by the same Blood as them? The Rapture is peripheral, not essential to the doctrine of Salvation. Let them alone, they do you no harm with their belief and your aggression grieves The Holy Spirit and mocks Christianity before the world.
SHAMEFUL!
Romans 1:28-31 Spiteful, vicious, strife ridden malicious gossips, arrogant boasters
Vs 32 “Although YOU know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, You not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
You are embarrassing yourselves and breaking your Lord’s heart! Repent of your wicked slanders against the brethren before HE comes and reproves you.
I agree, the question of rapture timing is not one to break fellowship over. I tend to agree that 2 Thess 2 does indicate a mid-trib or later rapture but I also agree with my pre-trib friends that salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone so that whenever the rapture occurs we will both be there.
The problem with folks debating between a Pre, Mid or Post Tribulation Rapture (if by the Rapture you mean that Jesus takes born again believers to Heaven)is that no Rapture really takes place. Yes, there will be a "meeting in the air" with Jesus, but we don't get taken to Heaven but rather we meet and greet Jesus and then escort Him to earth, once and for all eternity.
Also, if you get locked into a Pre, Mid, Post (or even a Pre-Wrath) debate, you are still way off base because the 70 Week period theory that "The Tribulation" is based on is erroneous theology.
All of this is well documented in my book, "The End Times Passover." Yes, it doesn't matter when Jesus returns, as long as we are found devoted in our faith and service to Him. Nevertheless, it is only pride that keeps folks from seeking and learning further evidence that mitigates the entire "Rapture" theoriizing.
No one should ever stop seeking more and greater wisdom of God until He returns.
Blessings to those who seek His wisdom, forever!
Joe Ortiz
The rapture does happen under the seventh trumpet and their is a reason for it. After the two witnesses are taken up, not long after the seventh trumpet is blown and under that trumpet the Rapture happens. To many people are unwilling to look at the ministry of the two witnesses as the earth shattering event that it is, christian rulers of the earth they shall be for 3 1/2 years. The whole world, not just those in Jerusalem will give gifts to one another when they are killed by the Antichrist. After they rise, the Bride is assembled in the air with the Lord to return with Him in Revelation 19. The bowl judgments that take place during the reign of the Antichrist (the second 3 1/2 years) and this time is also refered to as a time of the last gleanings of grapes, or like walking through the orchard and picking the last olives off the ground. It is a time when those to be beheaded are taken into the fold of the first resurrection and those who are to survive as a remnant of mortal man into the millenium to repopulate the earth are differentiated from those who take the mark of the beast. Don't take my word for it. Wait and see! You won't have to wait long. The times ahead are going to topple many false ideas about the endtimes. Praise be to Jesus that faith in Him alone by grace alone is enough!
God bless.
Unfortunately, the last post (by anonymous) is so typical of the deluded premillenial, dispensational groupies who have no clue (or evidence to support their Pre-Tribulation rants); they merely spew out the rhetoric they hear from others who have not studied deeply the isssues concerning the return of the Lord.
Do yourself a favor and get copies of my two books (which took 25 years to research and write), which provide accurate Bible evidence that your contentions about a 1000 millenium period and the church is the Bride) are mere fantasy and conjecture.
They (Pre-Tribulation adherents) boldy post their nonesense on thousands of web sites but yet lack the courage to even leave their names or sources to substantiate their unfounded claims.
Yours in Christ!
Joe Ortiz, author
The End Times Passover
Why Christians Will Suffer Great Tribulation
Great blog, Joe. Don't know if you are aware of it or not, but you and others like you are the wave of the future! True, you have some critics, but you will win out over them. Lord keep you on the straight and narrow.
Reggie
James 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him.
Mr Ortiz
You write as if you alone are able to seek God’s Word personally. Why do you berate those who faithfully apply James 1:5 to ask God for wisdom to understand, then read and trust with faith by believing He will ensure they arrive at the truth?
Mocking the intelligence of others by supposing ineptitude to reason for them selves is academically mendacious. It is discourteous to imply that anyone rejecting your choice of interpretation as inadequate, and beneath your superior mental prowess. Such arrogance can only be wondered at!
Indeed 25 years is a very long time to spend writing depictions based upon the faulty research of the pseudo scholar Dave MacPherson. If you were to actually read the documentation concerning MM ( who was NOT pretrib by any stretch of the imagination) and Derby etc for yourself; you will soon see that MacPherson’s deductions are based upon the twisted pronouncements of an extremely biased, embittered newspaper journalist with an axe to grind. He requires pity and prayer rather than the idolization that perpetuates his literary delusions.
Believe exactly what you want to by all means, but at least get your facts right before selling faulty literature supported only by fallacious, even mythical ‘evidence’ devoid of any factual verification. Without a doubt, the world would soon sue you for defamatory libel and character assassination, but such is the love and patience of your ‘inferior’ Christian brethren that they prefer instead to abide by God’s Word permitting Him to be Judge.
traker
Dear "Traker"
If you had read my books, you would see that I boldly state at the begiining, middle and end of my booksd that I do not believe my findings (after 25 years of study) are to be viewed as the final word on the Rapture eschatological debate.
However, I have no guilt about chiding premillennial dispensationalist on their faulty theories concerning this issue. I have written to many of those authors offering to share my findings and they all declined. I wonder why?
I believe that we (all who have chosen to participate in this debate)should never think that we can never learn anything new and be humble enough to listen, read and examine any information that will enhance the current knowledge we possess. But, they shy away from this because there is a great chance that THEIR (premillenial, dispensationalists) theories will have to be reconsidered, and eventually be forced to pull their books of the public shelves, and lose royalties (and face with the theological community and the public as well.
I would love for anyone of these folks to sue me in court, and I would be most ready to present my evidence against theirs and let the jury decide who is more correct or closer to the truth. If their evidence (which I have read Darby, Lindsey, LaHaye, et al over and over again) is proven to be more convincing than what I present, I, kind sir, will be the first to repent and adopt their doctrine. To this day, there have been no trakers! Oooops! I mean takers!
In His Peace,
Joe Ortiz
Mr Ortiz
IF any Christian were to take you to court sir, then you would be right to take them to task as The Word forbids such a thing. It is to their credit, regardless of their eschatology, that they reject that option.
As for declining the invitation to read your tomes, I can only assume they consider it a misuse of the financial layout and their time? Perhaps you may consider making a gift to them requesting their honest appraisal of your work based upon their hermeneutic of God’s Word in comparison to your own.
Further, I have no desire to fall out with you, only to express my concerns that your manner of public criticism against your brothers in Christ must surely grieve The Holy Spirit; and to wonder how troubled He must feel by the critical spirit observed in your diatribes.
Disagree by all means, but with a gentle, loving attitude desired by The Lord in such circumstances, as opposed to the vitriolic rancour evident thus far. If not for your sake, then for the sake of The Lord who shed His blood so willingly on behalf of His Church, for it is Jesus who bore the marks of your vocal beatings at Calvary, not your perceived adversaries.
Would you drive the nails in a little deeper my friend?
Brother Traker:
I did offer my books free of charge to many of those authors, and I'm willing to offer them free to you as well. One renowned author responded with this curt reply: "I don't have time to read any stupid Jewish books." That immediately told me what He things about "The Passover."
As for discussing this issue with a gentle heart, go back and read your first volley in your original post, where you merely threw scripture (2 Tim 3:1) in a condemnatory, vitriolic manner. Had you stated, "But, Mr Ortiz, I disagree with you on this and that matter, and would like to share my views with you." I would have offered you my books at that time (for free) and would have welcomed your reply. But you didn't, instead you came out with your pious, scripture-swinging at me instead of requesting for that "gentle" discussion.
To respond again concerning my chiding of those authors(which you call a slanderous attack), I refer you to Proverbs 27.5, which states "Better is open rebuke than hidden love."
Blessings to you and yours!
Joe Ortiz
Mr Ortiz
I accept your criticism levelled against my use of Scripture, and I am glad to apologise.
Conversely my original intention had not been to enter into dialogue with yourself, rather to appropriate Scripture for your most serious consideration regarding the chosen embittered method of critique against your brethren. My objective was to provide opportunity for you to see how The Lord Himself would speak to you directly through His Scriptures.
As you are an Amillennialist using Covenant Theology’s Figurative hermeneutic it is unlikely, to the extreme; that your work would sit comfortably with the Premillennialist system of the Grammatical-Historical Serious hermeneutic. Both these interpretations of God’s Word are as different as light is from darkness. Can you not accept that effectively this means you are ‘speaking different languages’ from one another? As you are so certain that yours is the correct method so they are equally certain that theirs is the correct method, with that being the case; for you to move on knowing that ‘never the twain shall meet’ this side of glory with courtesy and respect for another’s use of interpretation.
Thank you for your blessing. Mine is for you to know the peace of God in your heart and to express His Love for your brethren which ‘covers a multitude of sins’.
Traker:
Two things are consistent in your messages. One, is your "I'm more holier and correct than Joe Ortiz, but I'm willing to forgive him." The other is your assumption that you know what doctrinal camp I belong to; which by the way is none. I grew up with people like you trying to lump me into one camp or the other, as in "You are a liberal, or you are a conservative," in order to avoid getting to know a person's true heart and soul. I write about this greatly in my two books.
You try to lump me into an amillennial camp solely because I don't believe in a 1000 year reign of Christ on earth before He creates new heavens and a new earth. I explain in deep detail why I am not a millenarian, which is part of the title of my firrst book, The End Times Passover [Etymological Challenges to Millenarian Doctrines]. So be it!
Your browbeating comments about covering a multitude of sins is so common among self-righteous and haughty Christians like yourself. I provided the appropriate scripture about my boldness in chiding premillennial dispensationalist (open rebuke better than hidden love) but you prefer to still look down at me in your smug selfrighteousness.
We all sin, Mr. Traker, in thought and deed on a daily basis. I am the first to bow each morning before almighty God and thank Him for my undeserved salvation. I don't consider myself worthy to help Jesus carry the cross, but yet so grateful for His grace.
But, yet He did choose me to do this research, and He did guide me through the agency of the Holy Spirit to write my findings. Those who have read the entirety of both books have praised the work, and for the revelations contained in them. But you, kind sir, do not like the fact that I challenge premillenials, and that is caused by your inbuilt pride and lack of that true love Jesus calls for.
I don't feel any need to apologise to premillenials who have distorted the word of God; those who believe the state of Israel is God's time peace to Armageddon, those who use this doctrine to influence foreign policy throughout the world, those who believe we must support the nation of Israel regardless of the shameless crimes they commit on a daily basis, and those who believe that American laws are superior to God's.
If I'm am wrong in anything I say, I will still be able to look at Jesus directly into His face when He returns at the second advent to rule and reign on earth forever, and say to Him: "I did the best I could with the tools I've been given."
In conclusion, if you would like free copies of both my books, please write your request with your hoome address to my regular email at Joe.Ortiz9299@gmail.com
Also, I hope then you will be comfortable and feel safe enough to provide your full and or correct name as well.
HUGZ!
Joe Ortiz
Mr. Traker responded to my last post and I inadvertently hit the wrong button to get it published. I keep hitting the "publish" button but it wont comply; therefore, I have cut and pasted his response, where he said thusly:
Resentment, gross pride and roots of bitterness are all in full fruition I see! Nonetheless, I refuse to be your enemy, and wanted or not, to pray you will come into the Peace of God sooner rather than later.
This display of a malevolent and critical spirit is what I consider to be unnecessary Mr Ortiz, and decidedly un-Christ like, regardless of the eschatology of the recipients of your malcontent.
Amillennium means 'no millennium' therefore by definition, whether you like it or not, you are certainly an Amillenniumist!
Thank you for your generous offer which I must decline.
Farewell until He come Mr Ortiz.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My response deals solely with the correct interpretation of the word Amillenium.
According to Wikipydia: Amillennialism (Latin: a- "no" + millennialism) is a view in Christian end-times theology named for its rejection of the theory that Jesus Christ will have a thousand-year long, physical reign on the earth. This is in opposition to premillennial and some postmillennial views of chapter 20 of the Book of Revelation.
In contrast, the amillennial view holds that the thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20 is a symbolic number, not a literal description; that the millennium has already begun and is identical with the current church age, (or more rarely, that it ended with the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 — see Preterism). Amillennialism holds that while Christ's reign during the millennium is spiritual in nature, at the end of the church age, Christ will return in final judgment and establish a permanent physical reign."
In light of this interpretation (as I stated above in a different post) I don't believe that Jesus will reign solely for a thousand (millennium), but that His reign will be an eternal (and physical) one right here on earth, which begins upon His return and will last an eternity. Amillennialists believe that Christ's reign is solely a spiiritual one that began after His resurrection and (as stated above) ended in AD 70.
I don't believe in any so-called "church age" ~ God has had His church (ecclessia, a people called out for His purpose)going back as far as Abel, Adam's son, and maybe even Adam Himself.
Therefore, since I don't believe in the standard definition of Amillenialism, I most certainly cannot be lumped in that camp. If I did believe in that doctrine, I would be proud to stand up and say so. Anyone may choose to come to that conclusion (whether I like it or not), but that doesn't make it so.
But, since Mr. Traker is praying for me to come to a place of peace real soon, I thank him for his concern.
I'm just wondering why he declined to accept my 'generous offer" of my sending him two free books!
In His Peace!
Joe Ortiz
Traker: I urge you to Google "X-Raying Margaret," "Margaret Macdonald's Rapture Chart," "Pretrib Rapture's Missing Lines," "Edward Irving is Unnerving," "Scholars Weigh My Research" "Pretrib Rapture Stealth," "Pretrib Rapture Pride" and "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty." But you may want to take some tranquilizers first!
(submitted by Jack)
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